<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Response to Nielsen&#8217;s &#8220;Stop Password Masking&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/?utm_source=rss&amp;utm_medium=rss&amp;utm_campaign=response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking</link>
	<description>The Application Security Street Fighter Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:01:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: gtanuel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-726</link>
		<dc:creator>gtanuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-726</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a month late but here&#039;s my thought:
I agree much with hanford about the actual usability benefit [evidence] and Michael about the technicality (browser form data save feature).

In a place/system where its functions/services are considered critical (online banking, ATM, etc.), you don&#039;t want your password/pin entry to be fed back on the output screen in clear text, simply because you want the best possible protection that [you think] you can get. Admittedly there&#039;s psychological consciousness due to prolonged habit to see them masked, but there are other reasons as well.

Here&#039;s mine: people tend to have less than a handful of passwords we can memorize and their slight variations (e.g. to meet the complexity requirements). Any more complex than that, we would write it somewhere in anticipation we will likely to forget it in a month or so. Those memorizable password/pattern, we took effort to come up with in the first place to make them mentally storable and unique - at least to ourselves. In a way, it&#039;s becoming our &#039;intellectual property&#039; which we&#039;re reluctant to share with anyone else because if one is compromised, it may compromise other passwords for other systems that utilize the same patterns. In short: we don&#039;t want to keep them anywhere else but our own mind let alone keeping/seeing them in clear text, anytime, anywhere. Consider the recent Twitter documents leak incident. The attacker managed to keep his hijack unknown to the victim because he&#039;s able to uncover the Gmail password by searching for any site new registration email feedback in the archive that may contain some password, any password: in clear text. I searched mine recently and surely enough there are 20+ results showing my Gmail password in clear text.

In closing: I don&#039;t want to see my password in clear text anytime, anywhere. It should be clear text only in my mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a month late but here&#8217;s my thought:<br />
I agree much with hanford about the actual usability benefit [evidence] and Michael about the technicality (browser form data save feature).</p>
<p>In a place/system where its functions/services are considered critical (online banking, ATM, etc.), you don&#8217;t want your password/pin entry to be fed back on the output screen in clear text, simply because you want the best possible protection that [you think] you can get. Admittedly there&#8217;s psychological consciousness due to prolonged habit to see them masked, but there are other reasons as well.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s mine: people tend to have less than a handful of passwords we can memorize and their slight variations (e.g. to meet the complexity requirements). Any more complex than that, we would write it somewhere in anticipation we will likely to forget it in a month or so. Those memorizable password/pattern, we took effort to come up with in the first place to make them mentally storable and unique &#8211; at least to ourselves. In a way, it&#8217;s becoming our &#8216;intellectual property&#8217; which we&#8217;re reluctant to share with anyone else because if one is compromised, it may compromise other passwords for other systems that utilize the same patterns. In short: we don&#8217;t want to keep them anywhere else but our own mind let alone keeping/seeing them in clear text, anytime, anywhere. Consider the recent Twitter documents leak incident. The attacker managed to keep his hijack unknown to the victim because he&#8217;s able to uncover the Gmail password by searching for any site new registration email feedback in the archive that may contain some password, any password: in clear text. I searched mine recently and surely enough there are 20+ results showing my Gmail password in clear text.</p>
<p>In closing: I don&#8217;t want to see my password in clear text anytime, anywhere. It should be clear text only in my mind.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Klaus Johannes Rusch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-721</link>
		<dc:creator>Klaus Johannes Rusch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-721</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.atmedia.net/KlausRusch/blog/2009/06/disagreeing-with-jakob-nielsen-on.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Disagreeing with Jakob Nielsen on security, and a workaround to reveal passwords if needed&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.atmedia.net/KlausRusch/blog/2009/06/disagreeing-with-jakob-nielsen-on.html" rel="nofollow">Disagreeing with Jakob Nielsen on security, and a workaround to reveal passwords if needed</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew Chee</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-666</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Chee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-666</guid>
		<description>http://andrewchee.tumblr.com/post/129688047/in-response-to-jakob-nielsens-stop-password-masking</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://andrewchee.tumblr.com/post/129688047/in-response-to-jakob-nielsens-stop-password-masking" rel="nofollow">http://andrewchee.tumblr.com/post/129688047/in-response-to-jakob-nielsens-stop-password-masking</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-661</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-661</guid>
		<description>Reggie,

Computer users are more savvy than ever, but they can&#039;t remember a strong password?  More likely they just chose not too, because a good policy was not properly supported.

My personal experience:  strong passwords work very well, just spend a bit of time working with your user community to come up with easily memorized passwords so they don&#039;t just write them down.

Our security policy includes removing any postings that look like password notes.  Our information is worth protecting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reggie,</p>
<p>Computer users are more savvy than ever, but they can&#8217;t remember a strong password?  More likely they just chose not too, because a good policy was not properly supported.</p>
<p>My personal experience:  strong passwords work very well, just spend a bit of time working with your user community to come up with easily memorized passwords so they don&#8217;t just write them down.</p>
<p>Our security policy includes removing any postings that look like password notes.  Our information is worth protecting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason Montgomery</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-631</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Montgomery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-631</guid>
		<description>Richard - You are correct! I would guess usability as well as a sense of security is about the users&#039; expectations. Changing expected behavior into something that may appear less secure could ALSO cause a loss of business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard &#8211; You are correct! I would guess usability as well as a sense of security is about the users&#8217; expectations. Changing expected behavior into something that may appear less secure could ALSO cause a loss of business.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-616</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-616</guid>
		<description>I think both neilsen and you have missed a big issue. If I go to a site and the password is not masked, it&#039;s going to feel very awkward. It&#039;s the same thing if the site uses some label other than password (e.g. PIN, passphrase, etc.) - it&#039;s just weird and doesn&#039;t feel right. It has nothing to do with whether it&#039;s secure or not. As soon as I read Neilsen&#039;s article I thought he had lost his marbles. He could have made a very good case for keeping the mask and keeping the label &quot;password&quot;, but no, he had to go the other way and lose credibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think both neilsen and you have missed a big issue. If I go to a site and the password is not masked, it&#8217;s going to feel very awkward. It&#8217;s the same thing if the site uses some label other than password (e.g. PIN, passphrase, etc.) &#8211; it&#8217;s just weird and doesn&#8217;t feel right. It has nothing to do with whether it&#8217;s secure or not. As soon as I read Neilsen&#8217;s article I thought he had lost his marbles. He could have made a very good case for keeping the mask and keeping the label &#8220;password&#8221;, but no, he had to go the other way and lose credibility.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason Montgomery</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-611</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Montgomery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-611</guid>
		<description>hanford - supposedly all of Nielsen&#039;s usability information comes from real world experience. That being said, I also would prefer to see the stats to back it up.  It&#039;s difficult to weigh a security benefit vs. loss of business when there are no numbers to back it up. I suspect there are no easy answers here, though. The numbers would most certainly vary per site - depending on the demographic of users...for sites of a more technical nature this probably isn&#039;t much of an issue due to the demographics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hanford &#8211; supposedly all of Nielsen&#8217;s usability information comes from real world experience. That being said, I also would prefer to see the stats to back it up.  It&#8217;s difficult to weigh a security benefit vs. loss of business when there are no numbers to back it up. I suspect there are no easy answers here, though. The numbers would most certainly vary per site &#8211; depending on the demographic of users&#8230;for sites of a more technical nature this probably isn&#8217;t much of an issue due to the demographics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-601</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-601</guid>
		<description>Passphrases are nice. The biggest issue for end users will be during adoption: 5 sites support them and 30 don&#039;t. &quot;Do I want to use different passwords for the 5 that do?&quot; Most users probably won&#039;t since security isn&#039;t paramount to their way of thinking. If only we could educate them.


In response to the original article by Nielson:
--
The biggest hangup on this idea is how browsers work. Passwords are only saved in browsers if they use the masked &quot;password&quot; field, and are generally stored by the browser encrypted. Text fields store autocomplete data making them vunerable ot physical browser access (though it can be disable in most browsers with autocomplete=&quot;off&quot;) and are generally stored by the browser unencrypted.


So, do do you allow browsers to remember the password in their password history and keep it masked? Or do you use a text field and allow autocomplete of a text field which might expose the password? Or do you use a text field and require the user to manually enter the password each time?


Hard choices...somehow I think the existing system will win out until browsers allow unmasked password fields (if you type in it, you see the letters, if it is autofilled, it is masked).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Passphrases are nice. The biggest issue for end users will be during adoption: 5 sites support them and 30 don&#8217;t. &#8220;Do I want to use different passwords for the 5 that do?&#8221; Most users probably won&#8217;t since security isn&#8217;t paramount to their way of thinking. If only we could educate them.</p>
<p>In response to the original article by Nielson:<br />
&#8211;<br />
The biggest hangup on this idea is how browsers work. Passwords are only saved in browsers if they use the masked &#8220;password&#8221; field, and are generally stored by the browser encrypted. Text fields store autocomplete data making them vunerable ot physical browser access (though it can be disable in most browsers with autocomplete=&#8221;off&#8221;) and are generally stored by the browser unencrypted.</p>
<p>So, do do you allow browsers to remember the password in their password history and keep it masked? Or do you use a text field and allow autocomplete of a text field which might expose the password? Or do you use a text field and require the user to manually enter the password each time?</p>
<p>Hard choices&#8230;somehow I think the existing system will win out until browsers allow unmasked password fields (if you type in it, you see the letters, if it is autofilled, it is masked).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: drewp</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-591</link>
		<dc:creator>drewp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-591</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m concerned about a loss of business from users who start typing into the ***** box and panic when it shows their characters. 

Wouldn&#039;t such a &quot;highly usable&quot; site accidentally resemble the lousiest sites ever, the ones that have homemade security systems that leak passwords all the time?

It&#039;s hard to put myself in the non-technical users&#039; place, but I would think that as they make their first impressions of the professionalism of a site and judge its trustworthiness, seeing their passwords in the clear would probably not make them think of a security- and usability-conscious design.

It would be interesting to ask some users if they think the password is getting &quot;encrypted&quot; as they type it in, i.e. that&#039;s *why* it looks like *****. If that happens to be people&#039;s mental model, then I&#039;m definitely keeping with the tradition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m concerned about a loss of business from users who start typing into the ***** box and panic when it shows their characters. </p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t such a &#8220;highly usable&#8221; site accidentally resemble the lousiest sites ever, the ones that have homemade security systems that leak passwords all the time?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to put myself in the non-technical users&#8217; place, but I would think that as they make their first impressions of the professionalism of a site and judge its trustworthiness, seeing their passwords in the clear would probably not make them think of a security- and usability-conscious design.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to ask some users if they think the password is getting &#8220;encrypted&#8221; as they type it in, i.e. that&#8217;s *why* it looks like *****. If that happens to be people&#8217;s mental model, then I&#8217;m definitely keeping with the tradition.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brian Mobley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/2009/06/28/response-to-nielsens-stop-password-masking/comment-page-1/#comment-586</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Mobley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://blogs.sans.org/appsecstreetfighter/?p=1556#comment-586</guid>
		<description>Thank God someone else sees the sensibility of using passphrases. I have often wondered WHY DoD protocols never adopted their use (That I&#039;m aware of), forcing users as you said to do foolish things to remember their X-number character &quot;complex&quot; password such as post-it notes stuck to their monitors or whatnot.  I have yet to find a sysadmin who could explain to me the rationale of not using passphrases as opposed to current requirements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank God someone else sees the sensibility of using passphrases. I have often wondered WHY DoD protocols never adopted their use (That I&#8217;m aware of), forcing users as you said to do foolish things to remember their X-number character &#8220;complex&#8221; password such as post-it notes stuck to their monitors or whatnot.  I have yet to find a sysadmin who could explain to me the rationale of not using passphrases as opposed to current requirements.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
